Centurion 20 pounder

[32gbpadfal]

Hi all you Centurion veterans

Information required!!! I am trying to understand the loading and firing of the 20 Pounder main armament whilst researching my fathers time during the Suez Crisis.

I have attached 2 photos of my father in the turret to hopefully jog the memories and any help would be gratefully appreciated.





Firstly when the crew went to “Action” did the Cmdr shout “Action load Sabot or HE” depending on the ammo he wanted loaded?

Ldrs Drills

Did the Ldr isolate the power first to prevent power traverse whilst he carried out his drills using a switch somewhere?

I presume he then loaded the machine gun. Was it with 1 ball 1 trace ammunition?

Then would he open the breech and was this done using a handle of some sort?

After selecting the appropriate round I know he rammed it home with a clenched fist because when it sat in the chamber correctly the breech automatically closed

Did he then place the switch back to normal to allow traverse and report loaded?

Engagement

What type of fire order would the commander use if he was to engage an enemy position within a building?

I know the gunner would use the bracketing technique as there was no ranging gun but what was the process?


Any help would be greatly appreciated

32gb_padfal

[soprano54]

32gb that's put the cat amongst the pidgeons! I bet all the old Cent boys are trying to find all thier old course work or Pam 33 equivalent to find out all this info! I wonder who'll be first to come up with the answers? And I bet it's a D&M Instructor!!!

[son-of-tiny]

May 27, 2008 18:19:28 GMT soprano54 said:

32gb that's put the cat amongst the pidgeons! I bet all the old Cent boys are trying to find all thier old course work or Pam 33 equivalent to find out all this info! I wonder who'll be first to come up with the answers? And I bet it's a D&M Instructor!!!

I bet all the old Cent boys are in the loft looking for one of these

[alfredo]

Not too sure as memory is getting a bit dim (i know pecker before you say it). When the commander shouted action,the safety switch was engaged,breach opened,browning top flap opened,mech checked,main armament bore checked and if all clear "Bore clear was reported"

[32gbpadfal]

Not too sure as memory is getting a bit dim (i know pecker before you say it). When the commander shouted action,the safety switch was engaged,breach opened,browning top flap opened,mech checked,main armament bore checked and if all clear "Bore clear was reported
Thats great Alfredo, it seems very much like it is today in respect as the loader works his way round the turret to get things done in a particular order. Where was the safety switch on the turret roof?

The Gunners aspects I feel were quite different than those of today.

Going of my chieftain days I presume an angle to the target was determined along with a range and applied to a drum with a bubble, like a spirit level. The gunner then elevated or depressed until the bubble was level achieving the gun at the correct angle and then fired.

I know the bracketing technique was applied to hit the target but how?

And what fire orders were issued.

[alfredo]

32gbpadfal,it,s brilliant that you are so interested. Yes the Safety switch was indeed on the turret roof. Get a round plus of the target,drop 8,level bubble,add4 level bubble and so on.I,m sorry that I can,t help you more mate,but it is slowly coming back to me.Best of luck mate.

[centman]

May 27, 2008 7:24:56 GMT 32gbpadfal said:

Hi all you Centurion veterans

Information required!!! I am trying to understand the loading and firing of the 20 Pounder main armament whilst researching my fathers time during the Suez Crisis.

I have attached 2 photos of my father in the turret to hopefully jog the memories and any help would be gratefully appreciated.





Firstly when the crew went to “Action” did the Cmdr shout “Action load Sabot or HE” depending on the ammo he wanted loaded?

Ldrs Drills

Did the Ldr isolate the power first to prevent power traverse whilst he carried out his drills using a switch somewhere?

I presume he then loaded the machine gun. Was it with 1 ball 1 trace ammunition?

Then would he open the breech and was this done using a handle of some sort?

After selecting the appropriate round I know he rammed it home with a clenched fist because when it sat in the chamber correctly the breech automatically closed

Did he then place the switch back to normal to allow traverse and report loaded?

Engagement

What type of fire order would the commander use if he was to engage an enemy position within a building?

I know the gunner would use the bracketing technique as there was no ranging gun but what was the process?


Any help would be greatly appreciated

32gb_padfal

[centman]

I learnt on the 105 mm, which I think was a superb main armament, with a .30 coax.
On the word "Action". The loader would half load the .30, by opening the top cover, placing a belt in the top, and closing the top cover, then open the breech, check that it was clear ie see daylight, and report "Bore Clear".

Cmdr, Sabot 800 Tank On"
Gnr 800 on, turn the range drum to 800.
Ldr, pick up a sabot 1 piece ammo load it in the breech which would automatically close, as it was held open by the extractors, pick up a 2nd round, make the trip, left hand side of breech, and shout "Loaded.

Cmdr, Fire
Gnr, Firing Now,
Gnr, Add 200, turn drum to 1000
Ldr, load another, pick up another,
Cmdr Fire.
Gnr, Firing Now,
Gnr, Drop 400,
Gnr, turn drum to 600
LdR, Load last round
Cmdr, Fire,
Gnr, Firing Now.

On the earlier Cents the floor was fixed so you walked around, OK for kipping at night, but the later, from about Mk 10, which had the 105 had a revolving floor that was part of the turret rather than the Hull.

A Sqn at Fally 67 had a Cent Dozer with, a 17ponder, but most of the Cents either had 20pounders or 105, which used this technique.

The Ammo was as I said 1 piece fixed ammo, with Sabot, Hesh, Smoke, and there was canister, which was developed in Korea, but we never fired it.
It was al electrically fired, and the trip switch was the loaders safety, in the roof, just in side the loader hatch was a swithch to stop the turret traversing, but some Cmdrs used to reach over and turn it off.

The other prob with thiis type of ammo was you had to then get rid of the empty cases which fell into a basket that could hold about 6.

Later Cents had a .50 Ranging Gun, and a different site with pattern, I could never get on with it.

Regards.

Smallest part of the breech, The screw retaining intermediate firing needle withdrawl lever.

[32gbpadfal]

Thanks very much for the info Centman you have an excellent memory.

[centman]

You will notice that Bob in Pic 1 is pushing the round home with his fist, this was because the breech which weighed 90lb closed very quickly, if you used your fingertips, you didnt keep them long.

I rember my first ranges at the Regt in 67, TC was the Cmdr, George Thomas driver and John Gigg was the Gunner, I was the gunner on 11A but JG had just done a B1 course, so I jumped in the loaders side.

I didnt have a piece of my hands that were not cut and bruised in some way.

When on the Battle Run, two Smoke Rounds were in clips under the Gun, the battery box lid got damaged and two rounds, electrically fired, and full of White Phospherous were wobbling above the batteries, I reached down picked both up, they weighed about 80ld each, and held them in my arms until we gor back to the Firing Point. I still think about it, we came so close, but when the chips are down, you just have to get on wioth it.

It's not the Mountains we conquer but ourselves.
Sir Edmund Hillary.

Regards.

[anthonymcintosh]

REMEMBER THAT ADVICE VERY WELL, RAM THE ROUND HOME WITH A CLOSED FIST OR SAY GOOD BY TO YOUR FINGERS,AS A CENT DRIVER I HAD TO DO MY SPELL LOADING WHEN WE WHERE RANGE FIRING, BUT TRYING TO GET 3 ROUNDS IN THE AIR AT THE SAME TIME WAS ALWAYS A CHALLENGE?.

Tony Mac.
B. Sqn.
1st RTR.
60-70

[texas]

I can Remember when we were on battle runs things got a bit heated and to get more rounds in the air at once the loader would fire the gun with the safety switch, very exciting !!!

[cobra19]

I remember the" 3rounds in the air" very well, HE asit was then or Hesh later. when the commander had given the orders the loader rammed one up the breach, picked up another, which he held between his lknees, then picked up the third, on"Fire" the guner fired the first round but kept the "tit" pressed so when the loader loaded the second, and made the trip off it went ditto for the for the third round. Everyone hoped that the commander had the range right or else he was in for a bit of a rollicikng for wasteing ammunition. The practise was later frowned on because of the saftey implication, the IG on the back decks had to be kept "in the dark" of your intentions too!!!
But it was quite satisfying the shorter the range. Loaders climbed out with big grins, because not many could be trusted to do it!!!!

[anthonymcintosh]

I think everybody agrees there was a buzz in the turret when it happened, now i know who was wasting all the ammo lads[ tanky laugh]

[leadfoot]

Hi Guys, I seem to remember that the BESA mg ammo belt loading was as follows, TABA - TABI, TRACER,ARMOUR PIERCING,BALL,ARMOUR PIERCING the next 4 was, TRACER,ARMOUR PIERCING,BALL,INCENDARY. Three rounds in the air as troop shoot, very impressive. Any one remember Warcop Gunnery Range? Happy New Year, leadfoot

[kenp]

1957/58. A Sqn. 3 Troop was equipped with Mk 8 Centurions. They were distinguished from the Mk 3s and 5s by their headlights and being fitted with an auxiliary generator(Austin 7 car engine I was told) for charging batteries when stationary. The Mk 8 was also graced with a turntable platform for the loader's benefit for which I was very grateful, but it did make it impossible to lay down in turret. Fortunately never had to load in a Mk 3 or 5. Servicing the breech block of the 20 Pndr was a bit tricky as the final operation was to close the breech without loading a round. There was a cam above and below the entrance to the barrel. When impacted by the base of the shell case they automatically closed the breech. So to close breech without loading a round one had to press the two cams with index finger and thumb and VERY rapidly remove them from the path of breech block.
Regards, Ken Parker.

[alfredo]

Very true Ken,but surely you remember trying to locate the Phosphour Bronze Crosshead into the channel under the Breach Block whilst supporting the breach block with your left arm thruogh the horns.At the same time pushing the bleeding breach block with your knee to engage it.Such happy days.!!

Alf.